Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Lodestar Podcast. I'm your host, Charlotte Goldstone.
Now, we all know that the first quarter of 2026 has been extremely volatile and there has been just so much going on. But the numbers really tell a fascinating story.
So what better person to help me unpack what happened in the first quarter of this year than the CEO of Container Trade Statistics, Nigel Pusey. For anyone who doesn't know, CTS is the most comprehensive data set on the market for global container shipping volumes and pricing. Its data is comprised of 75% contributed member data from the shipping lines themselves and market driven estimates for the remaining 25%. They release monthly reports that really do contextualize the stories we report on and the external factors that we see in the market.
So a bit later on we're going to be joined by Gavin Van Mull from the Lodest and the three of us are going to be dissecting and analyzing the biggest shifts in volumes, pricing and trade lanes over the past quarter.
The last time we all spoke was in January for a full year review and a lot has changed since then.
But in that episode, Nigel and Gavin both made some predictions. So if you stick around to the end, we're going to be revisiting their predictions, finding out what actually happened and and hearing their bold new forecasts for the rest of the year. So let's get straight into the episode.
Hello Nigel, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Good to be here, Charlotte.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Now, I don't think anyone needs me to tell them this, especially not you, but 2026 has obviously got off to an extremely volatile start. We had the US Supreme Court decision ruling against Trump's IPA tariffs back in February, which meant these tariffs were no longer applicable and refunds were due. And I everyone thought that this would be the main defining factor of trade flows in 2026, especially because we started to see signals of a return to the Suez earlier this year. Of course, all of this has been overshadowed by the conflict escalation in the Middle east which has seen the closure of the Strait of Hormuz, blockage of key Iranian ports and a multitude of knock on effects including fuel shortages, surcharges, reroutings, changes in contracting patterns, et cetera, et cetera. We could go on forever, but today we are exploring Container Trade Statistics Q1 data which spans January to March.
So Nigel, can you give us a quick reminder of what factors we are looking at across these three months and what factors we won't start to see until the next data release.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Thank you. Yeah, look, it's, you know, we thought we'd seen it all over the last few years, but I think we've managed to concertina everything that you can imagine over the last five years into three months. So, you know, we have every form of interest story that you could have and trying to unpick that in the data is a bit challenging. Clearly the Hormuz, it's already having a more significant impact than I was imagining for the first month. The Trump tariffs in a way has not become forgotten news, but it's certainly the pattern is the same and the impact of the ruling, it doesn't seem to have made vast amounts of difference to volumes and we can come back and have a look at that. But I think the big thing in a way is just the ripple on effect that this crisis has. The head of it starts in this quarter because we have the immediate blockage of the Hormuz and we'll go to those numbers and I think then on top of that we have the global economic effects and how long will the tail be? What impact is that going to have on global demand and the shifting patterns of demand that we were talking about?
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, there's literally so much going on it's very hard to make sense of. And that's exactly why your data and the numbers that you've got are so important at illuminating this. One thing that I did want to mention that I thought was really interesting from your last data release is the mention of the alliances. And obviously when you're looking at year on year data, we're now starting to see the change. So is that something that's having a big impact in the data?
[00:04:20] Speaker B: In itself, the alliance is there are some subtle changes in terms of where cargo's moving in and out of. But I think the big change was more that when you compare it with last year, people were looking at our February data going, what's happened? You know, Far East Europe was 50% up in blazes. But that wasn't really what was going on. The adjustments all took place at different times in the quarter last year. And therefore you really do have to get back and have a look at the data and say well over a quarter. Did that make a difference? I think the one thing I would say at this point though is that, you know, I don't know whether it's the alliance that's driving it or the opportunities that the alliances give them. But Far East Europe trade is still having massive demand and it's, you know, Even that one's dropping off our radar because it's become a little bit sort of status quo. But yes, it's made an impact, but it's more in the detail than the overall.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Right. That Far East Europe story is definitely something we will be coming back to later on in the episode. But yeah, good to bear all that in mind as we go into this podcast. So before we dive into all these dynamics and factors that shaped pricing and volumes for the first few months of 2026, I think it's going to be useful to set the scene of what happened with some quickfire questions based on the CTS data.
So what was the total volume demand in Q1 and was this a growth or a decline globally?
[00:05:44] Speaker B: So we are sitting at around 47.2 million TEUs for the first quarter, which is around 4.4% up on this time last year. So that's pretty much in line with global growth for all of 25.
It actually represents 9.4% over the equivalent quarter for 24, which is quite interesting. So not only is it pretty much in line with the overall increase, it's in line with the overall 24 increase as well. So we're looking at that 9 and a half to 10% that we talked about for over the two year period. The important point to remember this is that one and a half percent has been lost. So we would have been at 6 if the first four weeks impact of Hormuz hadn't happened. So if you were to put back the volumes as they pretty much were in Q4 or even at Q1 last year for the Middle east, the impact of that in the first quarter is about 1.6%.
So we would have had global throughput 6% up rather than the 4.4 we've reported, assuming a status quo of Middle east cargo, which clearly we don't have in March, which is quite surprising to me that it was of that nature.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: And overall, did moving freight get globally more expensive or less expensive over the quarter itself?
[00:07:09] Speaker B: It pretty much all it's done is move back to where it was at the end of Q4 globally. But there are some massive differences in there, some big ups and downs. But essentially freight went down to three points for January and February and in March alone it went up about 3%.
So on a global basis it's gone up 3%. So that's quite significant.
And that happened in the one month and it happened in a number of trades which have. We've had that impact.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: Which trade saw the overall highest volume.
[00:07:44] Speaker B: So the biggest volume for the quarter will be interasia trade and that's about 7% up on the equivalent quarter last year.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: Well, I mean, obviously overall volume doesn't tell the full story.
So which trade recorded most growth in both rates and in volume?
[00:08:04] Speaker B: So this one is a bit of a contrast because the trades that are still showing the big increases in the quarter is Asia to sub Saharan Africa, which is 33% up on a year to date basis. This is a classic one where this particular trade, Asia, sub Saharan Africa, had a lot of capacity brought into it, and we're seeing increasing growth on the import side, but we're also seeing growth on the export side, but the rates have been falling on the export because there isn't enough volume to fill the capacity that brought the boxes down. So in this particular case, the rates came down, but the volumes went up.
When we look at the trade where the rates have gone up, it's in effect, and this is not entirely surprising, Asia, India and Middle east where we've seen something around a 50% increase in the rates just with the impact of March alone. So that's quite staggering. And of course, conversely, and rather against normal economics, it's the trade where the volumes have gone down the most. Middle east itself, we think, has going to lose somewhere around 800,000 TUs, which is 1.6%, as I mentioned earlier, of the quarter volumes and around five and a half percent of the March alone volumes.
[00:09:22] Speaker A: What's really interesting is that those two trades that you outlined there, they both really show that pricing is now just reflecting everything else that's going on, rather than just demand. I mean, you've got the geopolitics factor and then you've got the capacity that's being pumped into Africa, which is something that we spoke about quite extensively on last episode. Yes, as we've established already, there were many, many, many factors at play behind these numbers. So to help us uncover what was driving this, we're now joined by Lodestar managing editor Gavin Van Mul. Hello, Gavin.
Hello.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: Hello, Charlotte. Hello, Nigel.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: To kick off the episode, I think first and foremost we have to discuss the March global volumes and the effect of the closure of hummus on them, or what we've seen anyway. So, Nigel, what impact has so far been seen on the Middle east exports?
[00:10:12] Speaker B: So it's around 62% decline, so that's pretty dramatic in one month. And, you know, and I suspect a lot of the boxes that have moved were ones that may have started, whether they've actually completed their journey. Yet they may be sitting in the Hormuz, because that is one of the things with our data. Once the box has moved, we are tracking it, so it doesn't actually mean it's reached its final destination yet. So just a small caveat, so, you know, it might be even worse than that.
So exports is down pretty severely and pretty much across the board. So all sectors, all trades.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: That really doesn't seem like a gradual slowdown. It seems like more of an immediate market shock. Is this all directly linked to the closure of Hormuz?
[00:10:57] Speaker B: Yes, pretty much. I mean, you're getting two challenges here. One is that above Hormuz, you're stopping a lot of cargo just getting onto the vessels in the first place. The second thing is the vessels just weren't going to the region at all to start off with. They were effectively bypassing it to the point of it wasn't just Hormuz. You go, right, we're going to go Singapore, Indian, then straight away, because we just don't know how this is going to work out.
And all of that was causing problems as well. So I think, you know, you're getting an initial shock and I think as time goes on, we'll see that changing as people adapt and find different routes.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Gav, we've spoken a lot about certain ports that have seen a boost due to being used for alternative routings, because obviously we mentioned exports, but these surrounding countries still need imports, specifically things that are crucial, like medical or food shipments. So what alternative routings have we been seeing?
[00:11:54] Speaker C: Okay, so you've basically got three sort of groupings of alternative ports. They've been sort of termed, like, Gulf bypass ports. You've either got that bit of the uae which is outside the Straits from us, and that's principally Fujairah, and a Corfican, which back sort of 20, 25, 30 years ago, Corfican was a sort of real competitor for Dubai. For a lot of those Middle EAS transshipment volumes. It was almost to the point of being mothballed until Hormers came along. So there's always some winners out of a crisis. Then you have the Omani ports and specifically Salalah, so quite far outside the Hummus sort of zone.
And then finally you've got Saudi Arabia's Red Sea ports, Jeddah, King Abdullah, and one at the underdeveloped, the line city, Neom, which is still being built at the moment, sort of to wind it back slightly. Sherlock. When the conflict first started happening, about two weeks after that, we started sort of switching our focus into if this is a long term closure of Hormuz, how on earth do you supply? We think probably about 40 million people who are utterly dependent on shipping for almost everything that they need for their lives, be it food or clothing or medicines and so on and so forth. So this then meant that you basically had a creation of land bridges, now Corfican into the uae which is actually just going across the different Emirates borders. So that has seen a massive increase.
Salalah is a long way away from the Gulf and it's actually through the Empty Quarter. So that really simply can't provide the capacity. Which leaves us really with, with Jeddah. Jeddah's really interesting. I think you've started to see the carriers. I'm going to take the Gemini as an example here. They're not the only one, but Gemini used to have three feeder services just going from the upper end of the Suez Canal into Jeddah. They put these in since the closure of the Red Sea. So they would have their Asian Mediterranean services come around, drop the cargo off in Port Said or Damietta and then feed it down to Jeddah through the Suez Canal.
As the conflict has gone on and as it's become increasingly clear that it's not going to be resolved overnight, you started to see and in the case of Gemini, they've cancelled two of those three feeder services and instead extended one of their Asia Mediterranean services to go southbound through Suez and perform a mainline direct call at Jeddah. By doing that, actually they've increased container carrying capacity into that port by about 50%. So it's like one 14,000 TE ships a week rather than to 5,002 ships.
And if you look at the port capacities of one of these terminals, they're absolutely fine. What they haven't got the trucking capacity to get from Jeddah to Dubai, which I think is about 1500 kilometer drive.
Our sources in Jeddah, we've managed to track down some local trucking operatives and the latest one that we heard was that demand for trucking services out of Jeddah to Dubai was outstripping supply by about four to five times. And that's had a consequent effect on freight rates over the longer term. They are actually building a rail freight corridor across the Kingdom.
Now that wasn't originally due to be completed until the early2030s. I understand that that's been pushed forward significantly, right, to get that land bridge up and running. So I think long term Jed is looking like it's going to do very well out of this.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really interesting. People always say like trade is like water and you try and stop it and it was just going to find a different way. And this is a really good illustration of that. I'd be curious, Nigel, if we zoom into Saudi Arabia, have you seen a notable jump in imports?
[00:15:50] Speaker B: So the interesting thing is as a country, the imports have actually come down 40% and that is because people are switching where the focus is. But that is split between ad demand, which is down massively.
But Jetta is pretty much lifting into Jeddah what we had this time last year. King Abdullah is up 20%. Now a lot of what Gab just described, which I totally share, is will have happened much more into April than it happened at the end of March because they can shift but you know, to do that all within a month. You know, if you're talking 15 day transit times from Asia or you know, 10 from Europe, there's a limit to how quickly you can do that and, and make it all happen. So I think if we were to do this again, repeat this in a month's time, you're going to see some quite dramatic changes in those numbers. But the fact that Jeddah is lifting as many boxes as a counterweight to add demand, which is hugely down, King Abdullah is up 20%.
That's already underpinning what Gav was saying.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: Well, I'm really looking forward to catching up with you Nigel, next quarter and seeing what actually transpired in the numbers. And I'm sure we could talk about the Middle east for hours, but I think we should look at another trade. And in your most recent data release it said that the Indian subcontinent and Middle east was one of the only regions to record overall export declines, but Europe was the other one. So I think we should take a closer look at Europe. Were there any lanes in particular particular driving this export decline?
[00:17:25] Speaker B: Well, I think the thing with Europe is that in terms of its exports, one of the things that we find is that it has just been this steady, steady decline overall. I mean Europe exports are struggling, have been struggling for quite some time and obviously an element of this is due to India and its continent, but that was only down around 14% whereas you know, places like south and Central America were for to the Far east itself. We've had this constant three or four percentage decline. One of our posts that the team have been posting here is about that relative imbalance and I did it at TPM where the amount of boxes have coming out of Far east and going back full.
That has Just been widening and widening over the last two or three years to the point where we're, you know, over three boxes coming in and one box going out. And that's quite staggering. And that's all driven by exports going down and imports driving up. So it's a performance not unlike North America when it comes to exports. Very similar, very poor.
[00:18:35] Speaker C: Sorry.
If I went back 20 years when I was looking at the Asia, Europe and Europe Asia trade, it was like one of the things that characterized the trade was that you had, you basically had Europeans, particularly Germany, exporting manufacturing equipment to Asia where it was then installed in factories to fabricate the goods that we would then buy back. Right. It's a one off, isn't it? You get to sell that manufacturing equipment once.
It seems to me that we've almost come to the end of that cycle
[00:19:05] Speaker B: now and I've got the Germany export numbers here. Actually German Exports are down 11% on the first quarter this year, 14 on 25 and 24. So that's 25% over a two, a two year basis. I think that's where you see the suffering. I mean German exports are, you know, struggling.
You're absolutely right that there's that one off setting up the factory. And to be fair, what the Chinese have, not only in their own country but in Southeast Asia is establishing those factories themselves once they got the impetus from those European imports many years ago. So I think that's, that is driving this constant widening which is, you know, being difficult to fill, you know, which sort of might also be a reason why going Cape of Good Hope continues for longer than some.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: Looking at the European import side, we had a story recently Gav, that said that the peak season might be changing on the Asia to Europe play. What did you have there?
[00:20:04] Speaker C: I mean, look, in general I think the peak season calendar has been shifted. I mean last year there was a very early and quite surprising peak season took place in about this time, right. And, and then it was followed by this sort of rebounded peak season that happened just after Christmas before Chinese New Year. And I think this pre Chinese New Year peak has now become quite established over the last four to five years. Whereas the May peak season, which definitely took place last year I think is coming back again this year because longer sailings, possible supply chain disruptions anywhere along the chain, whether it's port congestion or conflict or slow steaming or whatever. So everyone has basically pushed forward their supply chain planning by sort of a month to six weeks.
On the European import side, I don't know, I'D be interested to see if that's something that Nigel's seen.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Well, yes, they feel a bit at the moment is we are certainly seeing some surges. I mean, you know, at the moment we're talking 15% up on far east imports into Europe for the first quarter of this year. So there's some pretty staggering increases. Personally, is this part of a much earlier one? Because, again, people are nervous that they want to keep stocking up. You know, is that what's driving this? You know, it's quite intriguing to see why that should happen that way.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Well, another factor for Europe was from the 1st of May, we're going to see the EU Mercosur trade agreement, which will create one of the world's largest free trade areas. It's going to cover 720 million consumers and aim to reduce tariffs of over 90% of bilateral trade. And this has been in negotiation for something like 25 years.
Is this something to watch, do you think? Is this going to be a notable boost for European exports?
[00:22:02] Speaker B: I think it definitely will have an impact. The interesting thing is quite how big that's going to be, given the price differential of purchasing out of China. And is it slightly bolting door after horse is bolted in the sense that can they compete with the China groups? As we've seen, China goes into West Africa, gets 35% increase in volumes, and they didn't need a trade agreement to achieve it. But it's going to make an impact and it'll be fascinating to track this one over the next quarter or two as it comes into play and see which types of cargo are actually being lifted.
[00:22:37] Speaker C: We had a comment on this from Jan Harnisch, who's on the board of the Renas Group, the German freight forwarder. And so he was saying, you know what you've got going southbound, Europe's exporting machinery, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, largely via Rotterdam and Hamburg. And then coming back, it's what you expect. It's agricultural, agricultural products and sort of raw materials. And so part of the difficulty for that trade is those are two very different types of cargo. Right. Which require very different types of handling.
The other point he made, and this is echoing what you've just said there, Nigel, I'm going to just do it quote here. So it's an open quote. One area that is sometimes underestimated is customers. Lower tariffs don't necessarily mean fewer hurdles. And of course, he's right there, because once you introduce trade rules, you introduce things like rules of origin and quotas, size. So the focus switch to that to checking that the goods comply with the actual trade agreement.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: I think it takes time for those things to bed down. And we've seen this in the, the UK post Brexit. Where's the, you know, where do we get tomatoes from? They're now coming from North Africa. These things have found new ways of moving. So it's going to be a fascinating to watch because as Charlotte rightly says, it's a massive trade area and it's just going to be interesting to see how China reacts and Asia reacts in general to it. And how can Europe compete in that environment.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Now last time we spoke was for a podcast we recorded at the start of the year back in January for a full 2025 review.
And I asked you both to make some predictions off the back of a very up and down year, which I think it would be quite unfair of me to hold you to now because I mean no one could have predicted what actually transpired. But let's take a look back at what we thought might happen and what actually happen.
So Nigel, you predicted that we would keep seeing growth in the secondary trades and imports continuing to grow to sub Saharan Africa, South America and intra Asia. So what actually happened?
[00:24:38] Speaker B: Well, certainly to Sub Saharan Africa it's continued going. I think it's around 33% into sub Saharan Africa from Asia. South America I think is 17%. So that's still pretty, pretty strong.
Inter Asia is 7 or 8%. So those three are still pretty kicking along.
They are unaffected pretty much by what's going on elsewhere. And I'm pretty sure we're going to see those kicking through for the rest of the year, to be honest. And for all of what's happening at the moment, clearly if there's a very long tail to the Hormuz, the price of oil is going to impact on all of those markets. So we will see a dampening down of those increases. But this is where the percentage growths are, not the volumes in overall terms and Eurasia notwithstanding, of course, because you know, even 7% on you're talking on a 50 million trade out of 190. Now that is where the powerhouse of container shipping is at the moment.
[00:25:34] Speaker C: Aside from the effect of oil prices on sort of consumer demand. I also wonder what the impact the reduced supply of oil in terms of building all the secondary products, all the plastics. And that seems to me that will hit the intra Asia trade at some point because a lot of those factories rely on these sort of derivative products of oil to get whatever goods they're
[00:25:54] Speaker A: making well Nigel, that was some pretty good crystal ball skills from you there. Back in January.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: I had to make up for last time Charlotte thrashed me.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Well, Gab, you predicted that we would see a bump in imports to the US due to a major restocking exercise. You said especially if the tariffs were relaxed in any way. But you did question if this would come from China or Southeast Asia. So what actually happened to the North American imports post a tariff removal? Are we seeing recovery on China's North America or has this kind of alternative sourcing already been cemented?
[00:26:32] Speaker B: I think it's pretty much. I don't want to turn this table and show you Charlotte, but he's negative and all said no, there's not one piece of good news for him. This.
I have sought my revenge.
It's interesting across the board. Whilst the Far east actually has settled down, you know, it's 2% overall but that is still showing. China, if I remember rightly, is China's still down 10% in the first quarter but it's now been completely offset by Southeast Asia. Southeast Asia is virtually compensating for that. In terms of volumes. I think you used the word cemented. I think this has been cemented in for the short to medium term.
Not much is going to change because they've got a solid supply. It's not being affected by tariffs. Why keep changing just because a tariff and a geopolitical trade discussion changes, You've got a solution? For me it's like going around the Cape of Good Hope. If it works, don't break it. They are not cemented in stone forever and whatever might change in the future. But this one is here for the medium term in my view. So yeah, so there's, you know, there's still a quite a downbeat position for North American imports but it's now spread to the rest of the world as well. So basically North America is.
Stopping importing would be dramatic but it's 4% down, you know, and they're taking a lot less cargo from the rest of the world, that's for sure.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Well, I mean you both made a few forward looking statements during this episode in terms of like the, the fuel and the knock on effects of that.
Do either of you feel bold enough to make any predictions of what we might see in Q2?
[00:28:18] Speaker C: Don't think we'll see a return to the Red Sea?
No, I think that one's off the, off the table.
[00:28:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree with you. I think sue is. Suez is off again for another quarter
[00:28:29] Speaker C: at least unless it's southbound transits. So southbound transits will, I think, will
[00:28:35] Speaker B: increase compared to the previous because these Jeddah, the need for the Jeddah calls.
[00:28:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the question is what sort of peak season we have in Europe.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Well, you know, personally, I think I just can't see this demand that if I'm going to stick my neck out on anything, it's to say there has to be an end to this impulse spree that is happening out of Far east, which we've seen for the last 18 months. There has to be a dampening down. Has this thing sort of, has the peak happened a little bit early this season because of all sorts of reasons pulling forward cargo. There is going to come to an end to that and I think the Q2 could, could start to see that. And I may well be very wrong, but I. I just find it difficult to see how that continues.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: One prediction that I can be very certain of for later this year is that Container Trade Statistics will be launching a new product. So what are the details here, Nigel?
[00:29:29] Speaker B: Yeah, so much of the stuff that we've been doing, we're doing for many years. One of the things we're looking to do is to launch a regional trade newsletter. So basically we produce a global one at the moment and we're looking to take this down to a slightly more granular level on a number of trades globally. So we'll track the trade volumes and the price indices and it will get another wonderful newsletter written by the. The CEO, I can't remember who his name is. He promises to write lots of newsletters or at least make sure that he puts his name to them anyway. But we're going to try and do a little bit more analysis than we do in the past to make the data a little bit more interactive. And the team have been doing some great work putting that together. So we'll be showcasing it around over the next couple of months and launching later on in the year.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: That sounds incredibly timely given how much volatility the industry is trying to interpret right now. So I really look forward to that. And something else that we can predict for sure in Q2 is that you will both be in attendance at TOC Europe in Hamburg. So you're speaking there, aren't you, Nigel?
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I think we both are. The poor, poor audience is going to have to listen to me speaking and then gav's on shortly afterwards. So we're speaking at the CSC part of toc, which we're very excited about, because I think Europe needs a focus on the container market as a trade rather than just its operational elements.
[00:30:53] Speaker A: What's your panel going to be about, Nigel?
[00:30:55] Speaker B: Well, so when I wrote the title two months ago, it was post tariff first quarter. What's happened, you know, so really it's now post quarter. What do you know about Hormuz and Gav?
[00:31:06] Speaker A: What about you? What's your panel?
[00:31:08] Speaker C: My panel's on pork growth and supply chain agility.
It's got some really good panelists on it, so I'm very much.
[00:31:15] Speaker B: That's what's really good.
[00:31:16] Speaker C: Yeah, well, they've done a very good job there.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Well, I'm sure there'll be no shortage of things to discuss in Hamburg. Thank you both so much for your help unpacking the chaos of Q1. And I really look forward to catching up later this year to see what unfolds in Q2.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: Fantastic. Thanks very much, Charlotte. Thanks, Gavin.
[00:31:33] Speaker C: Thank you very much, Nigel. Thank you, Charlotte, for comparing with such
[00:31:38] Speaker B: and putting up with us skill.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: And thank you all for listening. We'll see you next time on the Load Star podcast.
